“A genuine Libyan decision would lead to something that the West does not want. That’s why they go to Berlin… Berlin has a very bad reputation in Africa. Remember Berlin 1884, the conference in which they divided Africa up between European powers: divided African minds and African wealth. Now you come to Berlin 2020, it’s the same game being played for centuries, and we’re not buying it.”
— Moussa Ibrahim
On today’s Going Underground, host Afshin Rattansi spoke with Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi’s former spokesperson Moussa Ibrahim about the upcoming Berlin Conference. Ibrahim explains why Germany has been chosen as the location to manage Libya’s crisis, how the West introduced chaos to Libya and has managed the chaos ever since, why Turkey is militarily backing the UN-backed government, and the conditions of the Green Resistance‘s alliance with former CIA-asset turned warlord General Haftar.
The interview begins with Moussa Ibrahim’s expectations for the talks taking place in Berlin tomorrow.
The following transcript is my own:
Moussa Ibrahim: It’s extremely easy to get lost in the details of the Libyan crisis, and this is really a part of the game the imperialist West has been playing for decades and decades in the region. Europe introduces chaos into Libya, and then what it does [is] it manages this chaos for years and years to come, sometimes by military means, sometimes by political means, conferences, negotiations, economic sanctions, UN decrees, European Union involvement.
All of this is to keep the country under control so they can rob its national wealth and control its political system, and prevent – more importantly – its population from rising up and making sure that the country is sovereign and independent from foreign influence. The Berlin Conference is just another step in this direction.
Afshin Rattansi: Okay, there are no good guys and bad guys as the corporate media loves so much. Is it your understanding that the ceasefire is holding at least in Libya? There are reports of some Turkish-backed GNA [Government of National Accord] – the UN-mandated soldiers – dying.
And have you been invited to the Berlin Conference? Has Saif Gaddafi been invited to the Berlin Conference?
MI: From the outside, they claim that they are inviting everyone. The reason that they imposed a ceasefire (especially from Turkey’s side) is because they understood that the Libyan Army was about to capture Tripoli.
Now those leading the Libyan Army were previous CIA-assets, as you said, but the Green Resistance of Libya has been using the Libyan Army as a vehicle to move forward and guarantee a level of sovereignty and independence for the country. They came up with this ceasefire to save the Islamist militias and the so-called ‘Government of National Accord’ that they imposed upon the Libyan people in 2014.
AR: So it is the entire international community that is against the Libyan people, arguably. And actually I meant General Haftar had been a former CIA-asset. So are you saying that this conference has been hastily convened because the Government of National Accord was about to lose all power? And it is mandated by all of the Security Council members including China, including Russia, let alone Britain and the United States.
MI: Of course this is something that the West does all the time. They change the rules. They assign roles between different parties in any conflict.
German was, you know, one of the better countries of Europe in 2011. It wasn’t involved heavily in the bombardment of Libya. It even objected to the very act of war, and proposed a peaceful road for negotiation. And that’s the reason – the very reason – Germany has been chosen; because the other European powers have been indeed morally bankrupt in Libya, [so] completely and utterly that no initiative can come from France, Britain or Italy, let alone The States, of course. Turkey, as well, because of its cultural, religious and historical links to Libya, was chosen and appointed by its European allies to manage the case jointly with Germany for the next few years.
They always change the agents. They change the parties that play the part. But the core of the matter is the same. Keep Libya politically weak, under the control of the West, keep robbing the national wealth, make sure that the Libyan population does not rise up to gain Libya back and make it independent and strong. And of course, as you know Afshin, play the media game. Talk about democracy, elections, negotiations, ceasefires; and they do it very well with newspapers, media, with experts, with intellectuals, and we are aware of this. We are not to be fooled again by the West.
AR: Okay, if Haftar is backed by Paris, Abu Dhabi, Cairo, Riyadh, France obviously also backing the GNA. Trump criticising Turkish agreement over oil between Sarraj’s Government of National Accord government saying it was unhelpful… I’m not sure whether that means Trump is going to come to the rescue. What is the Green Resistance? There has been, as you just mentioned, media, intellectuals, and the rest of it; it is not mentioned in the context of Libya.
MI: Inside Libya, all Libyans are aware of the Green Resistance. We are everywhere. We are the many, we are the majority; even our enemies inside the country admit to that. And actually, they have been for years now saying it publicly. They know any true political settlement; any transparent, truly, genuinely democratic system will lead to Libya being Green again.
I agree, it does not mean that we are going to own it, or govern it, for ourselves. It means we are going to liberate it from the foreign agenda. And because there is an international veto against the Green Resistance, we decided – many of us – to join the vehicle available to us, which is the Libyan Army. The Libyan Army is composed mainly (more than 80%) of officers and soldiers of the Green Libya. The West knows that very well, and they don’t want Libya with the, you know, [help] of the Green Resistance to go back to being independent and sovereign, and therefore go back to the old Gaddafist agendas of liberation, of uniting Africa, uniting the Arab world, opposing imperialism, maintaining the national wealth, development… independent economic development from the Capitalist system.
AR: That doesn’t sound like any time soon. General Haftar has said he has no problem with Saif Gaddafi running for president. Do we know whether Saif Gaddafi is even alive, let alone the fact that he’s not been invited to tomorrow’s Berlin Conference? And do you fear that given Trump’s recent drone assassination of Iranian General Soleimani that they could take Saif Gaddafi out if he’s alive now?
MI: There’s no doubt. We are afraid for Saif’s safety.
Saif al-Islam is a Libyan citizen. He is a leader and he is loved by a major proportion of the Libyan population. He has a genuine political programme and project for the country, but no-one from outside of Libya of course, wants to listen to him, because they know his voice is very dangerous to the agenda of the West, although Saif al-Islam and his followers have been saying for years now that they don’t want to take revenge against anyone, they don’t want conflict, they want an independent, peaceful and democratic Libya, and not just talk.
We have a very particular, definite written-down programme for all of this. We call for every single Libyan party, political current, to come together in a Libyan city – not in Berlin – under the supervision of the African Union, because we are African, and without any foreign participation.
No-one is accepting this because they know where this would lead. A genuine Libyan decision would lead to something that the West does not want. That’s why they go to Berlin. Remember Afshin, Berlin has a very bad reputation in Africa. Remember Berlin 1884, the conference in which they divided Africa up between European powers: divided African minds and African wealth. Now you come to Berlin 2020, it’s the same game being played for centuries, and we’re not buying it.
AR: Okay. Well, just finally and briefly, does it matter if General Haftar signs an agreement in Berlin, or is the question itself meaningless? And do you think he’s about to take Tripoli regardless?
MI: We are challenging Haftar because our alliance with Haftar is a very particular one. Haftar came under the CIA and American army protection in 2011. We will not forget that. He claims now that he is seeking Libya’s independence and freedom, and that’s why we are working under his official command in the Libyan Army. But if he signs anything in Berlin, if he goes against Libya’s sovereignty, and Libya’s independence and freedom, make no mistake, we will work no more with Haftar. And thousands and thousands of soldiers and officers will go out of their way to oppose such an agreement, and the whole equation of the Libyan political situation will be changed radically.