On yesterday’s episode of RT’s Going Underground, host Afshin Rattansi spoke to former President of Ecuador Rafael Correa (2007–17) on the uprising taking place in Ecuador against incumbent President Lenin Moreno’s austerity budget; whether the violence is likely to get worse; why Moreno refuses to bring the elections forward; and whether Lenin Moreno can survive the crisis and the prospect of a civil war in the country. They also discussed the imprisonment of Julian Assange and the revelations of spying against Julian Assange and himself.
[The following transcript is my own]
Afshin Rattansi: Former President, thanks for coming on the show. Let’s just begin before [we come to] Julian Assange to what is happening in Ecuador. Lenin Moreno, your successor, accuses you of an attempted coup in Ecuador. We’re getting reports of three oilfields seized, 12% of Ecuadorian oil output hit, and he himself has fled the capital.
Rafael Correa: Thank you very much for this opportunity for letting me tell to the world what is happening in Ecuador. Everything that is happening now is the government’s fault. He betrayed the programme approved in the elections and adopted an extreme neoliberal programme. They had a terrible agreement with the IMF; prompted a crisis by cutting domestic financial sources, reducing taxes for the wealthy and increasing useless expenditure. And there you have the consequences. When he had to set a very strong package of measures, poverty had already increased three points. After ten years, poverty has started rising again under this government. It’s grown three points and the very drastic package of measures was the tipping point, where, amongst other things, he doubled the price of diesel – one of the main fuels – and has tried people’s patience. That’s the reason for the protests.
AR: I’ll get to Christine Lagarde’s IMF austerity measures in a moment. She’s of course leaving the IMF to run the de facto EU bank, the ECB. But, what do think about Lenin Moreno’s chances of staying in power. He’s fled to Guayaquil and there are reports of him saying killings to come, although the Minister of Defence has said there are not tanks on the streets of your capital, there are camouflaged armoured cars.
RC: Let’s start with the final part of the question. Perhaps it is hard for me to be objective, because I have also been persecuted by this government, but I don’t remember – since I’ve had political awareness – having seen a repression of this magnitude. In the 70’s we had military dictatorships. I was a teenager. But not even at that time can I remember the people being so brutally restrained.
So he takes this decision by suppressing constitutional rights, by bugging communications, entering [?] houses without a legal order, and all of this. They are also using their force, including with lethal weapons against the protesters. This is something that has not been seen before. I do not remember anything like since the time I became politically aware.
In terms of government: the government has already fallen. Moreno has already fallen. They have to look for a constitutional and democratic way of keeping peace and keeping the country running otherwise they can lead us to a civil war – more than a civil war – a brutal repression by the enforcing authorities.
Luckily, our constitution offers those measures – democratic and institutional measures – in the case of social turmoil Article 130 allows the assembly with a vote of two-thirds of its members to authorise the election to be brought forward. And the President himself under Article 148 of the constitution has the faculty to bring the elections forward.
Why isn’t he doing this? He knows if he brings the elections forward he will lose and we will win. So he prefers the country to fall. They prefer the violence. They prefer this very serious situation instead of getting out by the measures that I insist are part of the constitution in a perfectly institutional and perfectly democratic manner.
AR: Do you think he wants to be the next Pinochet?
RC: No. Lenin Moreno, he was a puppet of the oligarchy, but he has been an instrument and he will stay there as long as he serves the groups of power.
AR: Why former president, are you not in Ecuador now with the tens of thousands of indigenous people demonstrating in Quito? And will you run again to become leader of Ecuador?
RC: I am not interested in that. My plans for life are different. I had to get back into politics because they destroyed my nation and because of the persecution and group persecution we have suffered. In Ecuador crimes of hatred are taking place every day.
They say we have to chase the Correistas. We have to clean our government from the Correistas, which is not only allowed by the media, but also fostered by certain press groups that do hate us, because they experienced controls on the privilege and their abuse while we were in power.
From 2007 to 2017 was the decade of most progress for the nation in our history. We doubled the economic product, we were the regional champions in reducing poverty and reducing inequalities, but this is not understood here in Europe. That is something that the elites do not like. It bothers them. Because it is only in the vertical direction of social relationships, in the inequalities, where they hold their power. Because they believe they are superior to others. If you offer our elites the choice to be three times more prosperous but equal to the rest of the people they will reject that.
AR: Well speaking of media – you’re in Europe – why do you think the media arguably seem more interested in pictures of demonstrations in Hong Kong and previously in demonstrations against Maduro in Venezuela, than armoured cars on the streets of Quito in your country?
RC: The answer is obvious. It’s because they play a clear political role. It would be enough to see but for a few exceptions who owns the hegemonic media – the national ones within the Latin American countries – which is a very serious problem. But even at an international level they do not belong to the poor. They do not belong to charities, except for a few exceptions; they belong to big capital and play a political role to defend the status quo. The media at a national level within our countries and at a global level plays a political role, but at least at a global level they keep certain limits – more professionalism. As you said, there is a total asymmetry in the information. Double standards. If there are demonstrations in Hong Kong they are not even shown – sorry, I mean if they are against the Chinese regime they’ll be shown every day, right?
AR: I want to ask you about Julian Assange in a moment, but I’ve got to ask you, as today is the anniversary of the Washington-linked killing of Che Guevara – you mention neoliberalism – why do you think his face is on the flags, probably on flags in your capital city, certainly on flags of the Gilets Jaunes in Paris and across France? What does he mean to you on the anniversary of his death?
RC: Well again, double standards. They talk about democracy and respect of human rights when it is convenient to them. So the killing of Che Guevara is a good example of that. He was captured alive and he was executed extrajudicially while he was in prison. It was a crime but who was sanctioned for that crime? And ordered by the actual CIA – they have the names but nothing happens. It is like the case of Julian Assange. They chase the ones who exposed the war crimes but not the ones who committed them, and these crimes are still unpunished, as in the case of Che Guevara.
What is the meaning of Che Guevara? We can agree or disagree about the ideology of Che Guevara but no-one can deny his authenticity or his commitment to go through extreme circumstances – even to leave his own family and give his life for his ideology – and that is something that should be respected by everyone.
AR: Well you gave asylum to Julian Assange at your embassy in London. He’s facing a court hearing on Friday for extradition to the United States for espionage. What did you make of the El País revelations that your embassy was actually being bugged allegedly by CIA-linked security services – including the bugging of his lawyer Geoffrey Robertson QC?
RC: Remember they said exactly the opposite: that from the embassy Julian Assange used to spy. There is evidence that they have been spying on me and my family, and spying on Julian Assange, including the sacred conversations between a client and his lawyer. So it is extremely serious. And take it as granted that Julian Assange will be extradited to the United States. Always from the beginning that was the agreement.
AR: You said you may have been the subject of surveillance too. Do you think that came from Washington and do you think that whistleblowers of war crimes by Nato countries – Boris Johnson and Donald Trump, who previously said he liked Wikileaks, he “loved Wikileaks” – they want Assange dead as a lesson to other whistleblowers?
RC: You see the international double standards. The asylum we granted to Julian Assange was not because we agreed with what Julian Assange had done. I believe in a nation’s national security and that certain information should be confidential, however, war crimes cannot be hidden. But the asylum was granted to him because there were no guarantees of a fair process and because he was to be judged with laws that allow for the death penalty that threaten the international [?] system of human rights. All the human rights treaties at a global level are against the death penalty.
AR: Former President Correa, thank you.
RC: You’re welcome.